Tuesday 30 June 2015

So... Where to from here?

Apologies, this is likely to become a bit of a ramble. It's a confusing time and I am somewhat confused. Read on if you dare.

Unless you live under a rock, you will have seen the leaked information about Age of Sigmar that has been doing the rounds on the internet. People are reacting in many different ways - some are excited, and some are disgusted.

For my part, I am just disappointed. It would appear that Games Workshop has finally acted upon its long-term stance that they are not a games company - they are a miniatures company. Their focus is selling models, and the rules are just there to give people something to do with their models, and to hopefully give them an incentive to buy more. Age of Sigmar feels like the embodiment of this, by doing away with all the overhead associated with producing army books, and using a simple rule system. It may be that GW see this as the way of the future. Who knows, it may even work.

For me, my primary concern was whether Age of Sigmar would offer a system with which to use my existing collection. Games Workshop have clearly stated that players will be able to use their existing models, and that the basing doesn't even matter. But looking at the pictures of the upcoming releases, my conclusion is that it won't work for me. The new models really don't look like they belong in the same universe as my older ones. This is probably intentional, but I have no interest in leaving behind my existing collection and moving to a new one (which is undoubtedly GW's ultimate ambition). The rules have not been officially released yet, but I have seen enough for it to be clear that this is not the way forward for me.

I will not be playing Age of Sigmar.

I have no real trouble saying this, but it does have ramifications. For the first time in almost 25 years, I will not be playing a version of Warhammer this is supported by Games Workshop. It leaves me in uncharted territory. I have spent a while now considering what I will do, and I figure that for me there are a few options.

  1. Continue playing Warhammer 8th edition (with or without End Times elements)
  2. Make changes to 8th edition and play that
  3. Play Kings of War

8th Edition
I have stated before that I feel 8th edition has been the best version of Warhammer I have played. It was a dramatic shift from the previous 4 editions, but I felt it was an improvement and in particular it worked better for one of the things that I most enjoy - playing large games. The game got an almost complete suite of new army books during 8th edition, as well as numerous expansions like Storm of Magic. Apart from Bretonnians, Beastmen and Skaven, the game came dangerously close to presenting a self-contained product.



End Times made a bit of a mess of things with the sudden change in character limits, combined army lists and super characters with combined monster profiles. It gave things a bit of a shake-up, which was not entirely unwelcome to people who had been using the same system for 5+ years. But it also paid scant regard to game balance, and left the game in a somewhat unsustainable position. If you kept playing with End Times unchecked, it wouldn't be long before the combined "legions" armies were dominating the scene to the detriment of everyone else.

Modified 8th Edition
For all that I think 8th edition is the best version of the game, that does not mean it's without its flaws. There are a number of niggles that I would be tempted to address if I were to keep playing the game, and didn't have to worry about using "official" rules anymore. It might have been tempting to adopt some house rules in the past, but being involved in the wider tournament scene meant that it would just have caused confusion in the long run. 8th edition did a good enough job out of the box, so I stuck with that. But without any current "official" rules to really align with anymore, and with the likelihood that the existing tournament scene is going to shatter with the advent of Age of Sigmar, it might be time to start tinkering with things to see if it makes the game better.

In truth I think a lot of different groups of people are going to jump at the chance to make what they perceive as improvements to 8th edition, and try to make it a more robust, tournament-ready system. In all likelihood this will result in dozens of home-brewed rules with no real authority behind them, and none of them will really take off as a widely accepted tournament system. But I might be wrong.

Kings of War
There are some fundamental problems with the future of a game that is no longer supported by its manufacturer. Even if someone manages to modify the rules, ironing out some of the things that caused complaints, and turns it into a balanced and well-received tournament game, it is likely that player numbers will fall over time. There will be little to no "new blood" entering the scene, and even the stalwarts will eventually drift away. Normally it's a cycle of players leaving and new ones taking their place, but that would likely become more of a downward spiral now.

Kings of War is the most obvious alternative in terms of a mass-battle Fantasy game that allows for most of the models players currently use in Warhammer. It's been around for a few years now and a new second edition is due to land in August. Mantic has always positioned itself as an alternative for Games Workshop players, and the shift to Age of Sigmar is potentially the key moment for them. I have played only one game of Kings of War thus far, and for all that a game looks similar to Warhammer battle on the table, the game is very different and far more streamlined. My initial feeling was that I didn't like the system as much as 8th edition Warhammer, but one game is not an adequate sample size, and it could just be that it would take some time for me to adjust and get a proper feel for the system's potential. I won't pass judgment on it until I've played it a few more times. Mechanics aside, the game has a growing number of supporters and is far more affordable to get into than Warhammer (using Citadel miniatures) had become, so its future is probably brighter than anything that clings to an obsolete product.
My first ever game of Kings of War. I was using Elves against Kingdoms of Men. I lost...
... But I did get to sandwich some Human Knights pretty well...

Fluff
Looking at things from a background perspective, I think I am still attached to the Warhammer world. You know, the one that doesn't exist anymore. My models are all from that world, and in a lot of ways I feel like I have unfinished business there. There were things I wanted to do that have not happened, but that doesn't mean they never can. The End Times were novel for making things actually progress in terms of events in the world, but there was an agenda behind them (the reset for Age of Sigmar) that I don't think I'm ready to embrace. So for me, my ideal setting remains in the old Warhammer world, before the End Times. Even if I play Kings of War (which has its own setting in a world called Mantica), I think to my mind the games will be taking place in that old Warhammer environment. Maybe I'll do some storytelling of my own.

The Blog
Over the years this blog has accumulated quite a number of readers, almost all of whom presumably are in some way tied to Warhammer (whether currently or in their past). I don't really know how things are going to pan out, but I still have a backlog of thousands of models and a desire to make use of them, so whatever I decide to do, the results will be here for people to see.

In the spirit of blithely carrying on in the face of catastrophic developments, here is stuff that hasn't managed to make it onto the blog yet. Apologies for my use of the phone camera. Motivation, don't you know...?
My converted Wyvern has a rider all of its own. He's just sitting on a pin at the moment, so can still be shifted off.
I finally painted the correct rider for this Wyvern too. I don't think I would have had him for 10 years before him getting painted. Well, maybe. He waited very patiently
Another unit filler! Because what could be worse in the face of all this round-based, skirmishy Age of Sigmar news than a unit filler? I have some unfinished business with a bundle of undercoated Halberdiers, and I was wanting to try making a shorter cart for this unit.
The wagon master looking after his horsie.
It's just a basic supply wagon. I should be able to do a nice convoy for an ambush scenario soon.
The wagon is the exact same 3D model used for the other fillers, but this one got the chop. Quite a few chops, actually. But it works now.

49 comments:

  1. It's sad too see that you won't go for Age of Sigmar, I understand your feelings and all.
    Myself am in a bi toga shock still and don't do any work on my skavens or undead at all until I get to know more.

    But if you venture into Kings of War, would you do some reviews of how the system fares in comparison to 8th?

    I'm quite the hobbyist so I'm always looking for new venues to model, paint and play.

    Also, you haven't given 40K any thoughts?

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    1. I will definitely offer my thoughts on KoW vs 8th edition once I've played a few more games and can give a fair assessment. I'm sure plenty of people out there will already have talked about the differences if you want to know more now.

      I have an Eldar army in a cupboard somewhere, as well as the usual collection of Space Marines that most people seem to gather at some point. But I've only played 1 game of 40K since the end of 3rd edition, and I can't really see myself going back. I still like a lot of the models and background, but the desire to play the game isn't there. Maybe one day.

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  2. ARG! I just realised our long planned Battle for the Gates of Kislev is threatened by all this GW madness! We cannot let them prevent a game which has spent four years plus hanging over us like a mythical giant birdy thing of legend, even if it's usually been in a pretty nebulous state!

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    1. Yeah, it might never happen! Unless someone MAKES it happen, I guess...

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    2. I'll go get my hoodling motivation whip.

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  3. I am more than a little annoyed by the drastic change. I only got back into fantasy with the release of End times (after stopping in 5th edition) and have enjoyed building up my Vampire Counts army. I have only managed about 5 games of fantasy in that time, but hopefully will get a few more in 8th.

    I already play 40k for a large skirmish game, I liked fantasy for the large blocks of infantry and different tactical challenges it provided. I don't really want to play 40k lite with bows instead of bolters.

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    1. Sounds like a case of bad timing. Coming back during the End Times? Or was that intentional, with something specific to the End Times that appealed to you?

      Yeah, the market is well and truly sorted for skirmish games. What the scene really didn't need was one of really only 2 mass fantasy battle systems changing its stripes and joining the crowd.

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    2. I had an undead army back in 5th edition. The end times Nagash book and model tempted me back in. I have always loved the fantasy story line and was interested to see the changes.
      I think the shake up they did was great, but not the reboot and drastic changes coming to the core mechanics.

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    3. The game may have been due a shake-up, but unfortunately it was never their intention to stop there. The background deserved more than the flurry of End Times books and an abrupt end.

      The new Nagash model is a vast improvement on the original, however. And it was good to see him return.

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  4. I agree with you pretty much 100%. I've been running about the Old World for 30 years, and I was happy to stay there. The End Times was a financial decision, and I think it was nothing short of vandalism. I amy give AoS a go, but it'll be a hollow experience compared to Warhammer proper. I do the Oldhammer thing, so I'm used to older version of the game, 3rd being a favourite. Looks like we're all Oldhammerers now.

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    1. I'm not sure 8th edition counts as Oldhammer. More like Recenthammer...

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  5. I've been waiting to see you weigh in on this. Based on the rules we've seen so far, I can't see how AoS becomes a tournament game--with no points or unit sizes (at least for several units I've seen) I don't know how you'd balance that out. The LGS manager's argument against someone just taking 10 powerful models AND benefitting from these sudden death objectives (because he'd have the fewest models) was cost. But, in my experience, the kind of player who'd run that sort of list is EXACTLY the player with cash to do it.

    My wife says she likes the models, but I think she just misses buying new Warhammer stuff. I'd definitely add my voice to the desire to see some reports on here about Kings of War, which I have no experience with.

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    1. Cost alone is no defence against certain players who will find the money they need to execute their lunatic plans for world domination. There has to be protection within the rules, or if you're talking an organised event like a tournament, at least the potential to add protection as part of the player pack. I think one of the things that will disappoint a great many was that such a fresh start was the perfect opportunity to introduce a watertight set of rules that could lend itself to competitive play ala Warmachine. Clearly GW had other things in mind.

      The Kings of War rules are free online, so you don't have to wait for me to put things up if you want to know how it works...

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    2. I have seen that the rules are online, and may give them a look in a vacuum. However, you put together magnificent battle reps and seem likely to have access to a crew with which to get games in; our LGS isn't GW-owned, but the manager's mouth moves when the owner of his sister store coughs, and they've decided to die on Sigmar's Hill. He was already pretty hostile to KoW, and his response to the grumbling about Age of Sigmar's been to double down on GW as an infallible company, not-so-subtly insulting folks who have concerns. So I have better odds of seeing a game on here than on any of the tables I'm paying rental fees for! If it turns out to really scratch the itch, I can then start nudging some of the other fantasy folk to clamor.

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    3. Fair enough. Well one way or the other, I will ensure that I will give my run-down of Kings of War once I've given it a fair go.

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  6. First of fall, I'm very glad, that you're not giving up on the Warhammer world. Your blog has been a source for inspiration for a long time now and I'd hate to see it wither away.
    While I'm personally annoyed with the whole AoS-business, it's just that, an annoyance. No one can take away all the fluff and miniatures that came out in all these years. The tournament scene will definitely suffer a major blow because of the changes but WHFB will still be around. I'll definitely keep my armies and keep playing the game that got me into the tabletop hobby. And to all those succumbing to despair - don't panic and keep playing 8th ;).

    Cheers,

    Andrew

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    1. Really I am too invested in Warhammer to just throw it all away. And the ruleset becoming "obsolete" changes little in terms of whether it's a game to be enjoyed. As you say, the bigger impact will be to the size of the community that plays the game and the tournament scene. I suppose we're all trying to assess where things will end up in that regard as much as anything. We'll know more once a little time has passed and people have clearly shown where their preferences lie.

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  7. Hi Greg,

    I think I am of the same opinion like you. I definitely agree that GW showed clearer than ever they are miniatures company, period. They don't care about anything else. I don't see anything preventing them from releasing cool models in the future that would make old collections looking like they don't fit, don't have a chance in a game or both. We have experienced power creep with new army books so no reason to expect anything else. They want you to buy new models on a constant basis after all.

    What puts me off mainly is that skirmish feel. What always attracted me to Warhammer (and even more to Warmaster, that GW killed in the meantime too) was the feel of commanding units and armies, not warbands and powerful leaders. While Warhammer was never perfect it provided an opportunity to have that experience. AoS does not for me and if I wanted that, why would I pick the new, untested game when I can have others, well established products with much better customer care? Heck, since I like Star Wars and that universe was not yet destroyed in the way GW did to Warhammer, I might as well pick X-Wing.

    Another thing that made me sad is the total lack of empathy of people who perceive AoS as being great idea. If they were total strangers I would not be bothered. But these are people I played with and against. Is it really necessary to mock those of us who simply feel sad to lose the support of the game we like and that being replaced with the product (not a game, GW is not game company :-P) that is totally different?

    In terms of other options I am definitely going to try Kings of War, I will definitely be ready to play casual game of 8th edition Warhammer, I will dust off my Warmaster miniatures too. And like you I will do my best to continue with blogging. Hopefully there will be some readers for old fashioned 8th edition reports :)

    Cheers!
    Pawel

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    1. Cheer up, Pawel. It's not the end of the world! Well, the end of the Old World, maybe...

      Warhammer is not dead yet. It may no longer have GW's support, but that doesn't mean all the resources we already have are gone. It may be that once the dust has settled, there is still a strong community behind it.

      It is surprising how many people are keen for Age of Sigmar, given how different it is from Warhammer. It would appear that a great many gamers would really rather have been playing a skirmish game all along. Seems strange. And as for the lack of sympathy toward those players who are NOT excited by GW's latest offering... It could be that they're just as nervous as anyone else, and shouting down the nay-sayers because they really don't want to hear what they have to say. The internet is dark and full of terrors.

      I never played Warmaster, but I suspect that Kings of War sits somewhere in between it and Warhammer. It's more stream-lined and high-level than Warhammer, but you're still pushing around blocks of 28mm models. You may find that it matches your tastes.

      At some point I am going to play a game of Warmaster using Warhammer models. Probably on a preposterously large table. Because silliness is a thing to be embraced, right?!

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    2. Thanks, Greg!

      I am trying to stay positive and open minded, I might even give AoS a go to have first hand experience. I am sure there will be people willing to have a casual game of 8th edition and I have a feeling it will be great without some of the "competitiveness" thrown into the mix. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved going to the tournaments but I also like to play against some like minded individuals even if they bring some hardcore armies occasionally.

      I will definitely try KoW2 once it is released and you can be sure I will share that with some proper report :)

      I am really looking forward to read about your experience of 28mm scale Warmaster!

      Cheers!

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  8. Glad to hear you're sticking with mass-battles regardless, the hobby would be a poorer place without this blog.

    Given the plethora of battle reporters/bloggers who seem to have thrived in 8th, it will be interesting to see how many continue to stick with it or something similar. The Oldhammer (Middlehammer?) community could be considerable.

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    1. The question for bloggers and reporters will quickly become whether there is still a reader base looking to consume these things, or whether they feel like they are fading into irrelevance. No point lavishing attention on something if half your readers have moved on and the rest are too busy being consumed by feeling like rats clinging to a sinking vessel.

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    2. I totally agree! We, humble scribes, need your support, esteemed readers so be generous and throw some comments so that we can keep our motivation high :)

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    3. Comment :3

      Honestly, I hope you continue with 8th Ed (and from there tweeks for sure) rules in warhammer 40k ^^

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    4. 8th ed rules in 40K? As if things were not getting confusing enough... What are you playing at, sir?

      Good commenting, though.

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    5. Madness and chaos, it seems (thanks Tzeentch) x)
      meant to say purely warhammer (fantasy that is) :D

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    6. Hi

      Lurker checking in.

      I played Warhammer in 4th and 5th edition. I skipped 6th edition, and have been playing in 7th and 8th but kind of lost my interest during 8th. I will skip 9th edition.

      Rome II Total war rekindled my interest in ranked units. Finding your blog, Hoodling, rekindled my interest in Warhammer. I have, in the last 2 or 3 months, read all your battle reports and most other articles. My warhammer empire army is edging closer to completion due to it. I have even started GMing a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Ed campaign.

      I have helped in some little way with the Kings of War 2 beta rules, mostly just hunting bugs.
      I have tried and failed to get the KoW rules to be a perfect home for the Empire armies, and in a switchup, there will be a few units lost or houseruled. Waraltars and Buff Wagons do not exist in KoW, and Helblasters are Dwarf Only. Cavalry have lances, not hammers. Those sort of things. The Kingdoms of Men army list is good, not great, fit for empire.

      Hoodling, no matter what game system you decide on, I think I will keep reading this blog if you keep playing with your Empire models. Only a switch to 40k would drive this reader away.

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    7. Greetings, Asger the Lurker!

      Unless there is something yet to be announced further down the track, I don't think there really is a "9th edition". Whatever Age of Sigmar may be, it's not Warhammer Fantasy Battles. The game ended with 8th edition.

      I had noticed some Empire things don't have a direct equivalent in Kings of War. My Wolfygryphs in particular have been making big puppy dog eyes at me and whimpering in a manner most unseemly for monstrous beasts. They assure me I need to keep playing 8th edition, just so they remain relevant (and overpowered). Those are probably the most glaring omission for me - the rest tend to be individual models that are not so important. Certain things (like Warrior Priests and probably Flagellants) look more at home in the Basilean list too.

      I'm glad to hear my blog has helped serve as inspiration. Good luck keeping on making progress in the turbulent times in which we find ourselves!

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  9. Should you continue to blog about 8th edition, I will continue to read. And I too am sticking with 8th edition.

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    1. Even if I decide to shift to Kings of War, I doubt I will ever completely break my ties with Warhammer. It will be a question of where the majority of my focus ends up.

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  10. Hmm what to say. First I love your blog, It's nice reading a blog from a persons perspective that loves to play the game. Not hating on GW on the rules or cursing the dice, you just wrote about your games and modeling and it's fun to read. Now on to the other things, I personally will be heading to KoW. I played a demo game at Origins (Ohio game convention) and I loved it. I have Orks and some Ogres and I can't wait to play some more games. Good luck, regardless of what you decide to do I'll still be reading your blog.

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    1. Cheers! It seems for some people KoW has instant appeal. I can see appealing aspects to it, but I'm undecided yet about whether it will really offer what I want.

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  11. Hi Hoodling!

    I understand your feeling... I'm myself very torn about Age of Sigmar - I love the feeling of blocks being pushed across the table like 8th allows us to do, and my gaming friend is really not keen on the new rules (he's playing Skaven as his main army... where are the blocks going?).

    On the other hand, the rules feel much simpler to explain to people, and I can totally imagine introducing my kids (6 and 8) to the game: much easier with 4 pages of rules and unit cards! Whereas 8th would need much more work in adapting and simplifying, which I just don't feel like doing.

    Time will tell!

    In any case, I'll keep following your blog like I've been doing for a few years now. :)

    Cheers!
    Colin / Iluvatar

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    1. This is perhaps the best argument I've heard for Age of Sigmar's simplicity. But then, even though I have a young son too, it doesn't really sway me. My wargaming is my own hobby - not something I am trying to do with him (at this point, anyway). So first and foremost it needs to be something that satisfies me. If he starts to express an interest further down the line, then I will need to decide whether to simplify the game I am playing, or look further abroad.

      Cheers!

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  12. I just wrote a similar post in my own blog, so I completely empathise. It is a time of sadness and bewilderment, where do we go next? Some will quit altogether, some will take up the new "game", some will switch to KOW, some will stick with 8th, some will play another platform (there's already an unoffical Hail Sigmar announced elsewhere), there's other options too. I will probably try two or three of these, but things will never be the same again.

    I wish you good luck in whatever you decide to.

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    1. That's a good way of putting it. End of an era and that.

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    2. It's definitely the end of an era.

      But it is not the end of all things, as some might have you believe. We are still here.

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  13. Hoodling,
    I think i can live with warhammer 8th edition for a very long time, just because it is no longer supported by GW will not really change anything for me.
    Yes there will not be any new hotness coming out, but my mates and I already have all the army books, most armies and gaming aids , i am disappointed that GW has taken this route, but i can live with it.
    I have been playing warhammer for 25 years and i will continue to play for a long time to come, and during that time i look forward to reading your Blog and seeing what you have painted, the gates of Kislev battle sounds like an epic battle i look forward to reading about it here.
    Keep up the excellent work, and i hope that you still derive enjoyment from 8th for years to come.
    As for AoS , i doubt i will play it.
    'Victory lies with the Big battalions', and that is the game i love to play.
    Cheers
    Lupus

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    1. Yep, big battalions all the way. Skirmish games have never captured my interest.

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  14. My tuppence - as long as you keep doing the awesome big battles with the lovely models, I don't care if you 8th it or move over to my preferred system - KoW. Just keeping fighting the good fight, Hoodling!

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  15. Hi Greg,

    Now that we have war scrolls, is there anything you might add to the article above? I don't think they dramatically change the way the game is perceived but my impression after reading HE scrolls is that I wish we had some rules like that for units earlier.

    On top of that all these silly "rules" about bears, mustaches and how they affect the game show clearly that this game cannot be treated seriously :)

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    1. Hi Pawel,

      I haven't been digging too deeply into the details of Age of Sigmar. As I've been telling people, I don't even really care if the game is much better than people have anticipated. It doesn't really offer me any of the things I'm looking for in terms of game style or background. As such, I haven't been looking at the war scrolls beyond what people have been giggling and telling me about, like beard lengths and riding imaginary horses. Certainly things like that suggest GW are making as much effort as possible to distance themselves from "serious business" gaming. Doesn't mean the actual game won't work, nor that it cannot be adapted to a sound tournament system. That will be for others to decide.

      If people see me riding an imaginary horse and talking to it in my spare time, it will have nothing to do with AoS. A person can have more than one hobby, right?

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    2. Hi Greg,

      Fair enough! I had a look at them because of pure curiosity and I wish some of these rules were introduced with 8th edition. They sound interesting and characterful. Of course it is more of a first glance impression as I read only HE one.

      I even played a game yesterday. It started as a chat with another HE player and we decided to give it a go on UB. It was fun but solely because my opponent. It could have happened in any other game or in any other situation when two people are trying new rules.

      But if anything that confirmed what I already knew, that it is not a "serious" game and that is more tailored for story telling entertainment.

      Now looking forward to reading KoW 2 rules :)

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  16. Has anyone taken a look at the Avatars of War, Warthrone rules. They finally got translated into English at the start of the week. I haven't tried it yet (I'm hoping to get someone in my gaming group to try it out next week), but I think it looks better than KoW. There are only 5 army lists at the moment, but I expect more will appear, and there are some unofficial lists based on GW armies that just need translating from Spanish.

    The rules are a free download
    http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=51

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    1. I've only had the briefest glance at them thus far. The rules have existed for years in Spanish. They've timed the release in English very well.

      Some of the formation rules (like the checkerboard pattern) amuse me. I'll have to have a proper read before I can offer anything beyond that.

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    1. Thanks for your blog, hope to see the 8'ers continue.

      In my local casual group everyone loves AoS, in my tournament and larger battles group it is hated.

      So it has certainly split the community, but maybe for the better? AoS with the casual gamers with small battles and still play 8th edition or tweaked 8th and have large 2000+ battle campaigns and tournaments with the old guard :)

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    2. The games do seem likely to suit a different demographic. Which is why it seems so strange to replace one with the other (other than cost-saving). I don't know that I'd ever consider fragmentation of the community to be a good thing, but at the same time I don't know that it's worth trying to hold things together if they're clearly interested in different things.

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